97 Blog · Entry
Thoughts on Our List of Styles
A little while back I wrote about how we came up with our 97 point ranking scale, as I thought it might be helpful in giving our users an idea of how to better rank their reviews.
In that promised I’d give a quick overview of how we came up with our styles and today I’d like to make good on that promise. I think it might be helpful for those adding beers to the system to understand a bit about how the various styles and categories were chosen.
A lot of research
Before we got to building 97 Bottles, I, an admitted beer n00b, did a whole bunch of research. I started with other brew sites like Beer Advocate but quickly moved into reading magazines, books and finally; wikipedia.
One of the primary tasks I’d set to myself was setting up a comprehensive yet flexible taxonomy for describing the style of beers in our system. I sort of liked the idea of going by location, at least at the top levels, for a few reasons:
- Many of the books, sites, and magazines that described beer styles did so by location, so I figured it’d be a familiar place to start.
- Location seemed to be key, throughout history, in describing the style and attributes of beer. There is so much tied up with locale (culture, ingredients, etc.) that I thought it very important to capture.
- We have high hopes for location-based features in 97 Bottles and it might be fun/cool/interesting to somehow tie those into the styles.
Wikipedia
Once I’d determined we’d be organizing by location I took a dive into the beer styles themselves. My main source of information was Wikipedia, for very practical reasons. We started 97 Bottles to help people learn about and find new beers; at the time of its origin I was still very much learning and not at all prepared to write up the descriptions of our styles on my own. As well, we didn’t have the money to pay someone to do it, so the idea of using “publicly licensed” content from Wikipedia seemed not only attractive but necessary.
Having said that, I didn’t feel like Wikipedia was comprehensive enough on it’s own, so we did have to write up some of our own descriptions. The hierarchy and styles themselves were a bit more difficult to nail down. I’d been using wikipedia for the descriptions, but, again, it wasn’t complete enough on its own. I began to look else where and came across the BJCP Style Guidelines, which I found to be a great resource. I’d also taken a shine to Michael Jackson’s (The Beerhunter!) categories as well.
The problem with those? They didn’t, despite a wealth of location-based information, exactly fit the location-based organization system we wanted. Still between those and Wikipedia I had enough to get going. I spent quite a bit of time merging, re-arranging and tweaking until I came up with what you see now. Which, for the most part, I think works, even if it is a pretty large list.
User Interface
One of the issues we’ve had in the design of our interface was the action of choosing a category when adding a beer to the system. Right now we’ve got a hierarchical drop-down; which works fine, but is probably not the ideal solution. We’re still working on something that might be a bit better. The list is pretty large and hard to deal with as it is, and that’s the primary reason why we’re a bit picky with adding new styles to it.
Missing Styles
We knew going in that there were some (probably quite a few) styles missing from our list. The primary reason for a style not being there is that it’s just not commonly used or known. That doesn’t mean it’s not a valid style, only that we can’t find an accepted description and/or the style isn’t “large” or “unique” enough to add to our already long list. This is why you’ll see some styles kind of grouped together.
We realize this makes some beers a bit hard to pin down, but, honestly, I think you’d have that no matter what. Beer, when you get down to the nitty-gritty, can be a bit hard to classify at times.
What do you think?
I’m very interested to know what our users think of the styles we’ve chosen. If you think we’re missing something, please let us know and we’ll look into it (no promises.) As well, if anyone out there has an idea of a better interface for attaching a style to a beer being added to the system, we’re all ears.
Phil Dokas
Overall I like how you’ve set up your categories, everything is pretty sensibly placed but in my experience there’s one pretty glaring hole: the Belgian quadrupel. Just as you’d never call a Belgian tripel a dubbel or vice versa, so it is with quads. The best beer in the world, Westvleteren Abt. 12 (http://beeradvocate.com/top_beers, http://ratebeer.com/Ratings/Ratings-Top50.asp), is a quad and is actually categorized incorrectly on 97bottles because this style is absent. Similarly so for Rochefort 10 and St. Bernardus Abt. 12. Compare any of these side by side with a dubbel or a belgian dark ale and you’ll see how this really is a distinct beast by itself and not including it is problematic.
Matthew McManus
I don’t think I know enough about the zillion different styles of beer to make a good comment on your selection.
I have found though that the select box list a little unwieldy. I think something that gives you the option to filter easily what you see and not have it hidden in a dropdown would be helpful. Something like the simple jquery quicksearch plugin: http://rikrikrik.com/jquery/quicksearch/ or a little more fun and complicated Textboxlist: http://devthought.com/projects/jquery/textboxlist/
Keith Robinson
@Phil - oh, ok, we’ll add Quadrupel. I’ll do the necessary research and all that right now. I’ll also go in and fix those beers you mentioned. And maybe add them to my to-taste list.
@Matthew - we thought about search ahead/quicksearch, but that seemed a bit problematic. Part of the problem is we also want accuracy and we thought that might leave people open to more mistakes. I think textboxlist is interesting, and something like that might work well for our tags, but I’m not sure about here, we might look at it. Thanks for the tips! We’ll keep exploring…
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